Long answer: the rest of this post.
In 1989, when I was busy scoring goals in the wrong net for my indoor soccer team, a wonderful chick flick called When Harry Met Sally hit theaters. Years later, I would see the movie many times and marvel at its awesome dialogue.
In the film, Harry claims that "men and women can't be friends because the sex part always gets in the way." Now, I'm assuming that many of my readers come from the same place as me culturally -- the Christian subculture -- so you can feel free to delete the sex part. With this edit in mind, I present to you my thesis:
Men and women can't be friends because the [physical attraction/desire to date] part always gets in the way.
Interestingly, just as Sally in the movie vehemently refutes Harry's claim, most women reject it when I make it. But I'm not as mean or daring as Harry, so the conversation never takes the same direction that it did in the film:
Harry: ...men and women can't be friends because the sex part always gets in the way.
Sally: That's not true. I have a number of men friends and there is no sex involved.
Harry: No you don't.
Sally: Yes I do.
Harry: No you don't.
Sally: Yes I do.
Harry: You only think you do.
Bam! Harry tells it like it is, leaving tact back at the beginning of their road trip. But is he right? I say that he is, and for the same reason he ultimately gives -- the various types of attraction that make opposite-sex friendships appealing ultimately doom them.
Suppose John and Jane meet. What will inspire them to begin a romantic relationship? Mutual physical and personality (including values, interests) attraction. What will inspire them to begin a friendship? Mutual personality attraction. So, for a guy-girl platonic friendship, without a one-sided romantic pining to exist, we would need a man and woman who are attracted to each other's personality, but not their appearance.
What I'm basically saying is that this doesn't exist. Most people are attracted to a great host of people, so good luck finding a guy and girl pairing in which neither is physically attracted to the other. Even if you DID find this, there's the principle that "the more you get to know and appreciate someone's personality, the more physically attractive the person becomes to you." So, as a friendship deepens over time, romantic feelings inevitably develop (see When Harry Met Sally's plot).
Many unfortunate consequences
You might be thinking (especially if you're a woman) that this isn't true. You might even be thinking of examples of opposite-sex friendships from your own life. But let's return to Harry and Sally:
Harry: You only think you do [have men friends]... what I'm saying is, they all WANT to [have a romantic relationship with] you.
Sally: They do not.
Harry: Do too.
Sally: They do not.
Harry: Do too.
If nothing else, you have to admire the characters' advanced debate techniques.
This is the tragic part of the above thesis... let's call it the Cursed Corollary: in every meaningful man-woman friendship, at least one of the people has romantic feelings for the other.
The wheels are probably starting to turn in your mind... yeah, that guy you are really good friends with totally platonically? He likes you. That girl you're always getting coffee with? Admit it dude, you like her. (It IS usually the guy who likes the girl, too, fyi. We are just easily attracted, and you are very pretty.)
If any of you happens to be female and my friend... um.. please don't take this too much to heart.
Exceptions to every rule
I admit, there are some exceptions. We have only been talking about single people so far, because it's too complicated to talk about people who are in relationships with other people. So that could present some exceptions. But the major exceptions are what I'm going to call "wedges," things that have wedged themselves between two people romantically.
A revised thesis, then, would read: Men and women without a sufficient wedge between them can't be friends, because the [romantic attraction] part always gets in the way.
What would these wedges be? Anything that makes it abundantly clear to both parties that nothing romantic is going to happen between them. The best example I can think of is the wedge named Chris between me and my long-time friend Amanda. Chris and Amanda dated off-and-on for seven years, during which time Chris was my best friend.
Even in their "off" times, it was very clear to me and Amanda that nothing would ever happen between us because of Chris's role in my life. And, with that wedge firmly in place, we were able to have a fun, meaningful friendship during her stretches of singleness.
Other potential wedges: a vow of celibacy, a close blood relation, a huge age gap, a twisted social web of distrust/broken hearts/bitterness...
Let the comments fly
What do you think? Can men and women be friends?
Jon
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteOH I am so pumped to comment on this one. GREAT T.S. topic. I actually agree with you...in a way. Even if guys are attracted to girls romantically and WANT to be with them, does that really take away the "friend" label? no. But I agree that there is usually some sort of attraction on some level for at least one of the two parties.
ReplyDeleteI'd also like to add to your wedge factors. How about distance?? That's been an issue for me before in the past. Just friends because of the distance. Gotta love it...
Happy Thanksgiving!
Well you've posed quite the thesis, but then clarified it to such a degree that much of the fanfare is removed. Isn't clarification so much less dramatic...
ReplyDeleteI would agree with the premise, though, that men and women have natural - even subconscious - attractions to the opposite sex. Maybe the question is not so much if they can be friends, but if they should? For instance, should I be friends with a female coworker whose work is integral to mine? Certainly (that is, if I hope to accomplish any meaningful work). Should I engage in any romantic activity with her? If I am prepared to deal with the ramifications of a possible disastrous break-up after which neither of us will be able to escape the other, then.. (well at least I was warned).
However, this most logically would then lead to the answer: no. Friends for sure, but lovers most certainly not.
At this point it would become imperative to insert a so called wedge. If, now, I can only see my female coworker as I see my sister, I will not dream of pursuing anything further. Thus the possibility, maybe even, necessity of co-ed friendships. :)
Jon, very well done.
ReplyDelete(Note: It is 2:30 in the morning as I write this so it may lack some coherence, but I'll give it a shot) I think the commenters so far are somewhat missing the application of this principle. Can a man and a woman be engaged in a relationship that we would label "friendship" as a third party observer? Of course, that is not debatable. However, that is not the relevant question. The relevant question is "can a man and a woman be engaged in a friendship while neither of them wants something more out of it (be it sex or a dating relationship?" Only in those very rare "wedge" situations that Jon described.
In practice, this means that one of the parties in a "friendship" will feel one of these ways:
1. Willing to be friends because of the chance that it may turn into something more
2. Willing to be friends because it is the closest they can get to being romantically involved with that person
3. Willing to be friends and imagine there is actually something more there
None of these feelings is actually valuing the other person as a friend, in and of itself; thus, can it really be called a friendship? I say no.
Other wedges:
ReplyDelete- One of the individuals are gay, no explanation needed.
- You have a spouse that is also friends with this person of the opposite sex.
I think it's important to first define what we're talking about when we talk about being friends with a person.
Clearly, it's very possible to have acquaintences or casual friends. These are people that we may sporadically or even frequently encounter. Usually it's in passing and there isn't very much personal information or intimace shared. Yet they are pleasant to talk to, we have things in common with them, and are people that we would count as friends.
A good friend on the other hand, which is what I believe Jon is talking about here, is someone whom you:
-regularly enjoy spending time with in both groups AND one-on-one
-confide in
-share your life's struggles and joys with
-call when tragedy strikes and will listen to your problems and help you figure things out
-know accepts you for who you are, while pushes you to become a better version of you
While this isn't a definite requirement, I'm guessing that you can admit that you find your circle of friends attractive. If you spend a lot of time around a person, you aren't going to choose to be grossed out everytime you're around them.
Keep in mind that friendship is of course a two way street. Just because you can say yes to all of those things, would the other person agree to everything on their end?
Most people we call "friends" aren't willing to be sacrificial, or walk through tough times with us. On the other hand, if you ARE friends with a person of the opposite sex in this very way, and the communication/sharing/intimacy/encouragement/attraction goes both ways... I'm guessing that it's only a matter of time before you marry them!!
Here are some questions for those of you "singletons" thinking you have "good friends of the opposite sex" (GFOS).
-How many of the people that think they have GFOS have talked about having a legitimate interest in someone that isn't that person?
-How many people that have had that type of conversation actually felt the GFOS was being supportive and gave you advice/encouragment to pursue a relationship with this special guy/girl?
-Are you spending time with this GFOS mostly one-on-one, or with a group of people?
-How much time do you spend talking to them about your life, family, future (and for it to be mutual, their life, family, future, etc.)?
These questions are more for people that have moved past singleness...
-How many continue to retain these GFOS after starting to date someone?
-If you meet someone that you want to marry, and they ask you not to be bff's with a person, would you stop?
YES? Was that person actually a dear friend if you're willing to cast them aside so easily?
NO? If the friend is really worth more to you than the person you're wanting to marry, why aren't you marrying that friend?
I believe that a true friend of the opposite sex, keeping in mind the basic definition I laid out above, will be your spouse someday. And if I haven't made my point clear yet... true friendships between guys and girls don't exist. A true friendship never ends and inevitably, that guy/girl you're good friends with will for one reason or another.
Jon,
ReplyDeleteI was thinking about this whole thing the other day. As you said, most women do reject this idea. I did at first, but for the most part I believe this is true.
While I don't know the feelings of a lot of my "guy friends" I do know that there are several who I was interested in, therefore created a friendship and the only reason it stayed as a friendship were these said wedges.
Good topic, I think this should be talked about more often!
I was expecting more conversation, more opinions, debate, passion...
ReplyDeleteFor those who did comment, I will honor you with a response:
@Andrea: Your comment mysteriously disappeared. I'm sure there is some legitimate reason, but until I know for sure I will smugly assume you thought better of your Sallyesque stance and remembered that even though those guys didn't try to date you, they probably secretly liked you or vice versa.
@Kmech: You bring an enthusiasm and brightness to my blog! Thanks for commenting. And yeah, distance is a pretty legit wedge. And also, yeah I think a friendship is pretty much compromised when one person secretly harbors feelings for the other. I mean, imagining having a conversation about being interested in another person?
@David: I don't think I really couched my initial statement that much. These wedges are rare things that are out of our control. I can't just will myself to have a wedge between someone and myself.
@Tim: Thanks so much for clarifying! What you wrote there is Tangent Space(s) canon.
@Adam: Dude! Novel! But an awesome novel. I like that you took it to a place of personal reflection, even including questions to ponder!
@Rachel: Who are you? I know a few Rachels. Either way, thanks for the affirmation!
Come on people.
i agree with you from the female line here... but that is because I would consider myself as someone who [while single] was always on the look out for 'potential spouse material' in my circle of guy friends. Anytime I met a good, christian, fun guy I would think 'hmm... what about him? Could there be something there?" kinda crazy, maybe.
ReplyDeleteI do think that people who are genuinely content (guy/girl) with their singleness and what they are currently doing (job/ministry/school-wise) are MORE ABLE to 'just be friends'- but then again I am a girl and speaking from that standpoint. Thoughts??
youre in luck jon, i completely disagree with you. even a few years ago, i would have agreed with you, but my stance has changed. for a while, my i thought, as im pretty confident most 16-22 year olds would think, that it would be a great idea to date any (or all) of my hot female friends, mainly because theyre hot. any time this actually happened, the results were disastrous. id like to think that my judgement skills have improved since then, because now, i can think of plenty of hot girls that im friends with that i have no intentions of dating. thats partially because right now, i just dont feel like expending the energy it takes to date someone. so now half the battle is won, but in the past, that wasnt enough. because many girls are hot, its easy to think about how fun the physical aspects of the relationship would be, which in the past often proved to cause the problems that you described in your post. now, though, it seems to be much easier to hang out with a hot girl without constantly thinking about what she looks like naked.
ReplyDeletei think it all comes down to the desire to date. in college, you can date pretty recklessly because youre basically living in a city full of people your age, and no one has any REAL responsibilities. after college, chances are you dont have the free time you did, and its probably going to take a little more effort to make a relationship work. if you honestly say you dont want a girlfriend, and can contain you raging hormones enough to prevent a wild, awkwardness-inducing fling, you should be in good shape. if you do want a girlfriend, then you should be considering what tim and adam said about the motives behind being "friends" with a girl
Since you commented on my blog, I'm going to come comment here, especially because I just watched When Harry Met Sally for the first time the other day, and the concept has been met with at least seven minutes of consideration and reflection since then.
ReplyDeleteMy verdict: No. Men and women can't be "just friends" in the purest sense.
Though I must respectfully, as a girl, disagree with your assertion that it's usually guys doing the liking. Girls have this little issue that I like to call "spastic crush energy," and we also have the unfortunate tendency to assume that all niceness from a male is an indication of his romantic affection.
However, I do feel that it is possible for two people to live as friends, even when there may be underlying feelings on one side or another. Just because you're physically or emotionally attracted to a person does not mean that it has to jeopardize the opportunity for a meaningful friendship.
ESPECIALLY in the Christian community, where the assumption is not, "Hey, you're hot, let's have sex." Not to say we're immune to wanting it. It's just (typically/Biblically) not the first step in a relationship with believers.
Case in point: I could draw out a nice long list of fantastic gentleman on whom I've had massive crushes, yet with whom nothing romantic ever occurred. Were we "just friends" in the sense that neither of us had feelings for one another? Nope (spastic crush energy). But were we both able to enjoy the platonic relationship we had nonetheless? Yes, absolutely.
I mostly agree with Jon and Adam, but I'm ultimately gonna have to take the "disagree with Sally" position. (ie. yes, can be true friends) I see this whole issue as more of a question of marriage vs. singleness, with regard to how much time is spent with whom and in what context.
ReplyDeleteSome proposed corollaries which demonstrate:
1. Before marriage, both same-sex and opposite-sex relationships nominally exist on the same grounds, if the proper parameters are maintained with the opposite sex. (ie. sexual purity)
2. After marriage, both same-sex and opposite-sex relationships nominally exist on the same grounds. Neither deserve anywhere near as much time and emotional dedication as one's spouse. Neither will come close to matching the intimacy and rewards of a healthy marriage friendship. The remaining distinction is that, once married, it becomes dangerous / inappropriate to spend much time *alone* with a friend of the opposite sex, due to possible temptations or even the appearance thereof. However, this should not affect the level of friendship which may appropriately be shared in a group / couples environment. I think it is too limiting to define GFOS as someone you spend a significant amount of alone time with. (If so, this discussion is too obvious and agreeable!)
3. After marriage, if an opposite-sex relationship is *truly* two-way platonic, there is no awkwardness with the friend becoming the friend of one's spouse, if they are not already. This might be the ultimate litmus test. If there exists even a hint of leftover romantic interest, in either direction, it will feel awkward and the relationship will invariably end.
The only caution area I see in keeping close opposite-sex friends after marriage is the possible existence / development of emotional (co-)dependencies. (which has led some into affairs!) If there is still a draw to speak with an opposite sex friend alone, regarding some deeply personal area of life, this would certainly be inappropriate and need dealt with. But I think this, in itself, is no general reason to limit opposite-sex friendships, before or after marriage, if our hearts are properly guarded against relational sins.
@c-jo: I agree with the idea that natural attraction can exist and yet be suppressed, resulting in a meaningful / Godly platonic relationship. From all indication, romance and sexuality are fully in the mind (and the mind/will is to be subservient to the Spirit) Therefore, I assert that will is both necessary and sufficient as a wedge, regardless of other circumstances. Over time, the original romantic attraction can disappear entirely, especially after finding one's mate. (or rejoicing with one's platonic friend in finding theirs)
To keep with the theme, I'll end with a revised thesis: "A man and woman can be close friends indefinitely if and only if no pursued romantic attraction in either direction currently exists. After marriage, the friendship can properly exist only in a shared context with the couple."
Oops.. re-reading what I previously wrote, I didn't not reverse my double negatives properly. I meant to say "agree with Sally." (disagree with 'not possible to be just friends')
ReplyDeleteSo as not to waste a comment.. It's maybe interesting that this conversation is even occurring. There seems to have been a cultural shift towards men and women having more close, platonic relationships. (esp. before marriage) Our parents' generation didn't really do this. (at least, according to those I've asked) Any thoughts why we do? (or this might be a whole separate topic!)
Yes... Men and woman can be friends.
ReplyDeleteI am not a guy, so I will never understand the thoughts that roll through the minds of men...but I firmly believe that this is true. I think we get too uptight (especially as Christians, sorry! And I say this as one haha) about this topic. I have several dear friends who are guys and our relationships are strictly platonic. Yes, some of them have girlfriends which does play as the "wedge" but I love these boys dearly and would never see them in a romantic way. I can think of one specific friend from home who is one of my best friends and we would NEVER, EVER date eachother or have feelings. Never. Haha that's what I love about him. It is definitely platonic. I love having my guy friends. They would never pass any boundaries with me and they completely respect me. They are like my brothers. Again, to all you boys... I am not a guy, so I don't know what goes through your minds... Yes, my guy-girl friendships aren't the same as my girlfriends, but that's what I love!!! I think as Christians we get so freaking caught up in looking at the other sex as romantic material. I am sorry, but I look at people as people. Period.
I totally agree that some guys and girls can't just be friends. I know this. When you have a lot in common and personalities click, of COURSE there will be feelings involved. You can't forget about that lurking "sexual tension" or as my girlfriends and I call it "st." This is very real, but again, it is not with every relationship! I love my boys so much and I will always cherish the friendships I have with them.
Ps- "When Harry Met Sally" is the best!!! I will totally contradict myself in saying this last sentence, but I know that I will probably end up with someone who was initially a good friend of mine because I do think that foundation is important hahaha. Take that as you will.
Ok another wedge I'll throw out... personality/character.
ReplyDeleteExample: flirtatiousness.
Explained:
If a girl is known to be very flirtatious, guys will be friends with her and it can be a platonic friendship. The guy sees the girl being flirtatious with tons of guys, so he doesn't think that he's getting any special attention or treatment. Also, knowing that he's nothing special won't make him want to date the girl. It makes me hesitant to say that an actual friendship can exist even with this wedge (based on my previous definition of friendships). This is a shaky wedge, so feel free to argue it. I just think that it's easy to be friends with a known flirt, because they're obviously fun, make you feel good and you can most likely talk about personal things because there's no fear of being rejected because you're not interested in them because of their personality/character.
I'm rambling. I'm done.
<@LB>
I don't see how you can say that it's possible...
1) You come right out and admit that so called "wedges" exist in your GFOS relationships.
2) You admit that you have NO IDEA what the guys are thinking, so your feelings of having a GFOS are totally one-sided as far as I'm concerned.
Sorry, totally off topic, and a personal pet peeve, but I think it's a bit foolish to speak in terms of absolutes. To say that you will NEVER have feelings for a person implies that you know your future. I'm guessing you don't. You say you're a Christian, so hypothetically speaking, what if God made it clear to you that this really great friend would be the person you marry? Surely you wouldn't ignore God. Just don't say never because you don't KNOW what will happen in your life.
(Yeah, I'm a nerd who thought html style tags were a funny way to do a response to someone.)
@Adam (is this what you do to respond to someone. I have no clue)
ReplyDeleteI agree with what you are saying about flirting! I can see this debate. I know many a girl who can fit that mold perfectly. Works for both sides though. Flirting/sexual tension will always be elements between guys and girls, but will that really completely rule out a friendship? Ehh... I don't think so.
Ok, I will clarify. Two of my best guy friends at home have girlfriends..."wedges" That's out of like 6 boys who I consider my close friends, so not all of my relationships have this.
Of course I don't know what is going to happen in my life. I think it is OK to feel pretty certain about things that might not occur in life. There is nothing wrong with that. I think it is a bit foolish to judge a relationship you know nothing about aka me and my one friend who I will MOST LIKELY NOT end up with. I feel this in my heart of hearts and I am so firm with this statement. I am [probably] not going to marry this kid, sorry. Nor do I want to. Love him to death though. It would literally be like marrying my brother. I can honestly see what you are saying in reference to God changing my heart to view a relationship differently. I could see that happening with other people in my life... but again, not with this friend.
Oh, and what I mean by "what guys are thinking" is sex obviously. Haha sorry blog, but I will come out and say it. Girls think about it too though! You guys aren't the only ones with intentions like that. Oh, I have no doubt that many of my boys have had inappropriate thoughts, but I really take it with a grain of salt. I see it as the nature of the beast and I am not too offended and uptight about it. My friends respect me. Again, you don't know the crew I role with but I love them with all my heart. (even though guys don't always think with their minds)
Oh, and I fully trust that God will provide someone just for me. And yes, it is possible that it might be a friend I already have... or not.
1st, can you believe this was written 4 YEARS AGO?!
ReplyDelete2nd, after you mentioned this the other day, I couldn't resist revisiting this controversial topic and while it's taken me a few years, I completely agree
3rd, I wonder if you get email updates when someone comments, or if you'll literally never see this? oh well
Z, while I don't get email updates, I search for new comments like a hawk, so it's rare that they escape my notice. Thanks for the comment-- yeah it's crazy how long ago I wrote this.
Delete